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AOL | Mail | You might also like: WoW Insider, Massively, and more More Sites You Might Like * Massively * WoW Insider * Engadget * Engadget HD * Engadget Mobile * TUAW * TechCrunch * Huffpost Tech * Autoblog * Autoblog Green * Games.com * Comics Alliance * AOL Sporting News * MMA Fighting * Huffpost Politics Login / Register Email address: _____________________ Password: (Forgot?) _____________________ Username: _____________________ Login Cancel Joystiq PS3 XBOX Wii 3DS PSP PC Mobile Move Kinect _____________________ [ ] * Main * Games * reviews * Podcast * Videos * Galleries * Downloads * About * Tip Us * RSS * Twitter * [IMG] PS3 Xbox Wii DS PSP PC Mobile Wii U 3DS PS Vita PS Move Xbox Kinect * News * Review * Screens * Video * Downloads * Achievements * Guides * Forum Link: image_src Ultima: Most. Important. Game Series. Ever. by Rowan Kaiser [IMG] on Jan 26th 2012 8:30PM 84 This is a weekly column focusing on "Western" role-playing games: their stories, their histories, their mechanics, their insanity, and their inanity. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [IMG] Hey there. Whatcha playing? No, actually, don't tell me. You're playing Ultima. You don't know you're playing Ultima, but you are. If you're playing an open-world game, you're dealing with Ultima. If you're playing a massively-multiplayer game, you're dealing with Ultima. If you're playing a game with a morality system, Ultima. Even something as simple as three-dimensional graphics - either in perspective or overall representation - have ties to Ultima. How? Open-world gaming: From the beginning, the Ultima games took place in worlds which were as big as possible given the tech constraints. You traveled across swamps, oceans, and hills, discovering what the world had to offer. The world was rarely "gated", letting exploration proceed in a non-linear fashion. What's more, the developments of open-world gameplay throughout the course of the series presaged the open-world games to come. Ultima VI (1990) may be the most important open-world game of all time. Previous games in the series had switched perspective based on your context - dungeons were first-person, combat was top-down, and exploration on the world map had a completely different scale than exploration of towns. In Ultima VI, perspective was consistent. Your party walked into a town in the same way that it walks through a dungeon. It was a seamless, consistent world, that felt lived-in, and that open-world games from Grand Theft Auto to Skyrim owe a huge debt to. The deeper into the series you go, the more complex the world. Want to quit adventuring for a while and bake bread? You could do that. Want to explore dungeons that are totally irrelevant to the plot? That was an option. Grab a cannon and start slaughtering guards so you can steal everything in the town? Well, you could do that, but there were consequences. Morality: Modern games with morality systems tend to operate with a strict good/evil dichotomy, as they have since Fallout. But game morality didn't start with Fallout. It started with Ultima IV. And in many ways, it ended with Ultima IV, a game about morality more so than virtually any other. The character you played in the first three Ultimas was known as the Stranger, for visiting this fantasy world in order to save it. Saving the world entailed defeating the villain, no matter how that was done - stealing, murder, what-have-you. Ultima IV had no villain, and the world of Britannia was in a moral crisis, and only savable by embodying the world's new eight virtues and becoming the Avatar. That term became the default for a player character within a video game. How did you do this? You solved quests and explored dungeons, sure, but more than that you had to adhere to the moral code of the eight virtues. Honesty meant no stealing. Valor meant not fleeing from combat, but had to be balanced with Justice, where you didn't kill enemies who weren't evil. It's considered a unique game, and one of the greatest in gaming history. It's not entirely alone, either, as Ultima VI had a storyline about bringing two warring races together via diplomacy, not combat. Narrative: In addition to being the driving force behind open-world gaming, Ultima was also at the forefront of plotting in video games, at a time when RPGs, as a genre, was pushing gaming forward. Ultima III was one of the first non-adventure games to have any kind of in-game story development and, for the first time, conversations with various non-player characters in towns became an important, necessary way to understand the game. U5 took the virtues of its immediate predecessor and attached their exploration to a story with a villain. And the series' stories culminated in the two parts of Ultima VII, which were stunningly well-developed for the time and included one of the most shocking plot twists in gaming history. More impressive than the overarching plot was Ultima's commitment to smaller-scale conversation and character-building. While Ultima III required some basic conversations, they tended to become a single button press and reading a line or two of dialogue. Starting with Ultima IV, the series used a more complex text system, where the player would type in keywords in order to get information, starting with the ubiquitous 'name' and 'job' as introductions. This remains one of the most complex and in-depth conversation systems in RPG history. It was simplified slightly with the move to mouse-based gaming in Ultima VII, a move which laid the groundwork for the more common click-on-the-line-you-want-your-character-to-say conversation mechanic still in use. As a final note, Ultima was one of the first games to have you control one specific character, the Avatar, which you create. The other characters already exist with pre-determined roles and personalities, and can be engaged for conversation. This has become the default mode for party-based games these days, but it was rare in that era, where you rolled an entire party yourself, or occasionally played pre-determined characters. Technology & Interface: Ultima was also at the forefront of technical innovation. Its graphics and sound were consistently among the best available at the time. The games helped usher in the age of the mouse, especially with Ultima VII, one of the first games with an interface optimized for that instead of keyboard. Gone were piles of menus and stat bars. Instead you had a game whose gorgeous world and characters took up the whole screen. Click on something to interact with it. It seems so obvious now, but Ultima VII was one of the most important games in removing a level of abstraction from how players interacted with their games. This has become one of the most important trends in gaming in the last decade. Consider how many shooters don't have health bars or stats at all, instead showing the player they're in danger via blood on the screen or intense heartbeat sound - and consider how Ultima VII was doing that 20 years ago. That's not all, of course. Ultima Underworld was one of the first games to offer three-dimensional movement, being developed and released parallel to Wolfenstein 3D. Its form became the model for one of Ultima's most direct successors, the Elder Scrolls series. And Ultima Online, the game the name has been the most famous for in the past 15 years, was the first massively multiplayer game. Business: A prominent independent developer is purchased by a major publisher. Everything seems to be going great at first - the games are as good as they were but with bigger budgets. But suddenly, they collapse. What made the games interesting is lost by corporate medding, and what made the games great is buried under a pile of bugs caused by rushing to meet a shipping date. Is this BioWare, EA, and Dragon Age II? Nah, this is Origin Systems, EA, and Ultima VIII, one of the biggest disasters in gaming history. It didn't take long after that for the studio to be gutted, with Ultima quickly losing its cachet as the premiere series in gaming, instead simply becoming synonymous with the on-going Ultima Online. A half-hearted finale, Ultima IX: Ascension, was released in 1999. That Ultima is no longer a top-selling series in the current generation of games has caused it to slip out of the public consciousness. But no other series in gaming history has been so important across so many different dimensions of gaming. Final Fantasy and Zelda may be longer-lasting, but influence outside of their genres is rare. Mario can compete, perhaps, but in my view, Ultima's innovation in storytelling and character building push it over the top. I have no hesitation in saying that Ultima is the greatest series in video game history. If you've never played an Ultima, there are several entryways, many of which are at Good Old Games. Ultima IV, the most important title in the series, is even available for free, but it's not aging well and probably isn't the best gateway for new players. I'd recommend Ultima VII as a starting point, although Ultima VI is my personal favorite. There are also dozens of fan remakes and ports. And no, I don't recommend starting from the very beginning. Coming Soon: Questing rhythm in New Vegas, the question of morality, my first foray into The Witcher, and what Lands Of Lore & Betrayal At Krondor have in common with Final Fantasy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rowan Kaiser is a freelance writer currently living the Bay Area, who also writes for The A.V. Club, and has been published at Salon, Gamasutra, Kotaku, and more. He still occasionally finds Ultima VI Moongate maps and mantra notes when he visits his parents' house. Follow him on Twitter @rowankaiser. Tags: pc, rowan-kaiser, rpg, ultima, wrpg Share Reader Comments (84) [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:39PM TurbineTech said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Might have to check them out. Never really thought about how all those mechanics make up the games I love today... Great article! Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 12:25PM Chiren said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @TurbineTech Ultima IV is legitimately free on gog.com too! http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/ultima_4 Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:40PM dooms33ker said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Ultima VI and VII were perhaps the best RPG's on the SNES, despite what most JRPG fans may claim. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:51PM Draugdraugr said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @dooms33ker That's cool, I never realized came out on SNES. This really is a great series though, for me I would have to say Ultima: Underworld was the favorite for me. Speaking of dungeon crawlers, Legends of Grimrock needs to come out already! Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 11:33AM (Unverified) said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @dooms33ker Nah; Super Mario RPG. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:41PM edgore said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Thank you! I've been saying this for years! Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:45PM sqlrob said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report MUDs existed long before Ultima Online Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:58PM (Unverified) said * 3 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @sqlrob There are, perhaps, tiny but notable differences between MUDs and Ultima Online & the MMRPGs that came after it. See if you can spot them! Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:58PM jchan said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @sqlrob I used to play a Star Wars MUD back in the day. Good times... Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 10:33PM Draugdraugr said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @(Unverified) The point is, is MUDs were the first MMO's. All of the terminology that exists in MMO exist because of MUDs, along with lots of other gameplay aspects. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 11:06PM (Unverified) said * 3 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @Draugdraugr MUDs weren't "massive". That's the key thing that made UO stand out. Thousands and thousands of people, ruining everything with huge amounts of latency, chasing/fleeing the same gargoyle. MUDs were small, constrained, simple. Sure, some of that terminology has appeared in later games, but that terminology is one of the most annoying things about those games.... Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 11:27PM Draugdraugr said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @(Unverified) Yes, that made UO distinct, but to not consider MUDS the dawn of MMO's I think is just innacurate. Yes, it was hundreds, or in some cases 10s and not thousands, but in this case the scale is irrelevant. The point is it's a persistent world that mutliple people can participate with persistent characters. I mean, even everquest got some heat for possibly ripping off DikuMUD code. And everquest has been compared to DikuMUD by The makers of EQ themselves. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:47PM ninjaface said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Kudos!! Damn good article! Thank you Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:48PM richtaur said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Typo! "you'replaying" :) Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:49PM Lucky The Fox said * 2.5 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Good to see Ultima get a little love for once. It's downright depressing how unknown such an important francise has become. Ultima VII had the best, most-believable, most-detailed world I've ever seen in any RPG and I still compare every new western RPG to it. It's that good. The fact that it also contains some pretty scathing jabs at EA is only a plus, even if back then said company wasn't the monster it has since become. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:54PM Phades said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report I don't remember Ultima VIII being bug ridden at all, it was just completely different than Ultima VII and considered a disapointment because it was more "action" oriented than the previous game. The disaster you're thinking of was Ultima IX. That game seemed awesome, but unfortunately was pretty much impossible to play because of how broken it was. I purchased the Dragon edition and sadly never got more than 15-20 minutes into it because of bugs... Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 10:55PM sqlrob said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @Phades I never had any problems with IX, except for one minor(?) bug - I completely skipped the last dungeon and went straight to the final boss. I manage to miss the trap that was supposed to toss you into the final dungeon. My major complaint about IX was the scale. Towns that should've been across the continent were just over the next hill. It just felt so small when it should have been epic. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:56PM Calatia said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Spoony Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 8:56PM Faceless Troll said * Half a heart * [IMG] [IMG] Report Mort important game series ever? But this article's not about Tetris. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 9:36PM Faceless Troll said * 3 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @Faceless Troll "Mort"? Wow. That's an embarrassing typo. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 12:26AM pluupy said * 3 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @Faceless Troll You might say it's... Mortifying. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 9:04PM ballistic90 said * 2.5 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report I'd say that the open world of Ultima series had a bit more in common with the first Might and Magic or Wizardry moreso than Skyrim or Fallout 3. It had a lot to do with the fact that a more linear RPG just wasn't conceived by that point. Artificial or plot based limitations weren't common in the genre for some time afterwards. Keep in mind, Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy were released 5 years after the first Ultima, and Dragon Quest still had a great deal of freedom that was lost from the genre. Let's just be honest here, and give Richard Garriott credit for basically creating what many recognize to be the layout for the genre. RPGs technically did exist in the 1970's, but Ultima was probably the main inspiration for the genre we know today. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 11:09PM (Unverified) said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @ballistic90 I think you're right about the initial two Ultimas, although perspective can change things more than one might initially think. However, starting with 3, you get the kind of open-world mechanics that are present in most open games at some level. U4-U6 were kind of their own beast, but I see a LOT of Ultima VII in Skyrim, with the mostly-interactive world, picking crops, smithing swords, etc. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 9:05PM urgan said * Half a heart * [IMG] [IMG] Report Troll article is trolling? Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 9:21PM DoctorSmart said * 3 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @urgan fail meme is fail. Just because you weren't born before these pinnacles of gaming were created doesn't make them shit. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 9:30PM Redeemer said * 3 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @urgan ... what? Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 9:32PM (Unverified) said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @DoctorSmart I think it might be the other way around. I think the OP believes that it's so obvious that Ultima is the most important series of all time that to have to make the argument at all is considered trolling. Right? Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 10:08AM urgan said * Half a heart * [IMG] [IMG] Report @DoctorSmart Sorry about the overused meme. What makes you think I wasn't born before them? Hint: I was, and was old enough to play them at the time. I've played them all and I wasn't impressed much. They weren't bad by any stretch, I just don't think they're as important as claimed. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 11:42AM (Unverified) said * 3 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @urgan Oh well, then you're just wrong. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 9:29PM Sniper Specops said * 2.5 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report I used to be straight up addicted to ultima online, started playing it the year it came out, and didn't stop for 9 years. Ran one of the shards largest guilds, etc. Loved that game, until I met my wife, then I was shown the error of my ways, heh. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 9:29PM takahami said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report the original ultima underworld on big floppy discs is just grinning at me from my shelf 2 feet away. jupp, we had a good time. also uu2 was great too. but it had a gamebreaking bug and at that times patches were hard to get. weird times without internet. hail lord british! Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 9:43PM zombieguy said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Been wanting to check out the Ultima games for a while now but just haven't gotten around to it. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 9:43PM Fearmonkey said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report I'll never understand why EA lets this franchise just waste away, same with Wing Commander, Crusader series, and System shock..... I'm glad they gave syndicate a chance at revival, but these other franchises need some love too. The article mentions Ultima Underworld as being parraell in development wolfenstein, but I had watched a documentary where it said that Carmack admitted that Ultima Underworld's development had influenced his work on catacombs 3d, which later got changed into the wolfenstein. Not sure who is right but its intersting that you always hear about wolfenstein, but catacombs 3d was Id's first FPS. I remember downloading that from a bbs back in the day, Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 11:28PM Tel Prydain said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @Fearmonkey Agreed. Crusader would be far better suited to a modern action-remake than Syndicate. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 10:35PM (Unverified) said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Not to take away from Ultima, because I loved the series except for IX, but "The Realm" was active before UO. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 11:57PM Jenks said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @(Unverified) So was Meridian 59 Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 11:16AM budrojr said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Ultima owned me during my childhood and well into college (right alongside the Bard's Tale series and other Interplay games). The series had the best overall story arc of any game series I've ever played. Ultima IV through VI are legendary in terms of what they did for computer games in general, and there are many great things about Ultima Online which no other MMO has captured. I was pained to see how the series began to fail in the later years. It would be wonderful if a new Ultima game could be developed with Richard Garriot at the lead. I'd love to have the opportunity to revisit Britannia and kneel at the feet of Lord British once more. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 11:00PM killr0y said * 2.5 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Ultima III and IV on the C64: Best pre-digitized game soundtrack EVER. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 11:03PM zkey14 said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Ultima IV through VII are just pure class. Great to see Joystiq giving props to games that actually deserve it. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 26th 2012 11:30PM Tel Prydain said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Awesome read. I love Joystiq, but it seems like most of the writers and reads here come from a console-centric background. It's awesome to see credit given where credit it due. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 12:02AM liquidsoap89 said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report Alright Joystiq I have to confess... While I do enjoy these new ideas for the editorials (the other big one being the JRPG editorials) I have to say I'm not really a fan of the incredible bias they show. I'm sure the writers talking about these games are huge fans, and I wont fault them for that. It's just that I (maybe I'm alone, if so I'll shut up) am not a fan of seeing to one extreme side trying to convince me how amazing these games are, but not paying any attention to any other voices that might be saying the opposite. Honestly I don't know how I would actually like to see something like this, but to me they feel like they could be improved (or maybe not even improved, just presented differently I guess). I like that there's a push for more things like this, and I do like reading them. I just think that these articles specifically aren't the best you can come up with. But DO continue with games that are more PC centric... Joystiq is quite lacking in their PC interest (which is fine) and all this Ultima talk is a good direction to take! Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 12:08AM Ellimem said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @liquidsoap89 This is an editorial column, meaning it is the opinion of the author. If you think you have an opposing opinion that is as well written as this, I am sure Joystiq would be glad to see it. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 12:14AM (Unverified) said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @liquidsoap89 Ummm...I don't even know where to begin. So I guess I'll keep it simple. In this column, I am a critic. I am not a journalist. I am not dealing in the realm of "objective truths". My goal, as a critic, is to espouse my opinion, and to do in such a way that's defensible, understandable, and entertaining. I am supposed to have "bias". My bias is towards the things I find important or good or worth writing about. The *only* way that "bias" is relevant to a critic is if the critic has some unrevealed connection to what they're supposed to be rating. If I was getting royalty checks from GOG for the links, that would be bias. If I had a family member who worked on Ultima, that would be bias. There is room for other people to dissent. You're using one of the most obvious spaces! You can also find me on Twitter and argue with me there. Or post something on your own website. There's no shortage of places to post your opinion on the internet. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 1:39AM liquidsoap89 said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @(Unverified) Okay didn't mean to offend. I'm not saying I don't agree with the article or that it shouldn't be biased. I've never played Ultima before so I'm definitely not the right person to get in to THAT discussion with. All I'm trying to say is that personally (it now sounds like I'm alone here) I don't like reading editorials that are super one sided. I just don't really see the point in reading about something that is only 100% positive or negative. I'm not making a criticism against your writing or anything (or you personally), I'm just voicing my opinion on editorials in general I guess (or to be more specific, editorials that Joystiq have recently been posting). There are lots of editorials that I have really enjoyed reading in the past. If I can remember one I'll post it here, but other than that... I'm sorry? I don't want to sound like a dick, I just think there's a different format out there for editorials like these. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 1:52AM (Unverified) said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @liquidsoap89 I don't think you're being a dick. I do think that your idea that opinion pieces are supposed to not take strong opinions is bizarre, and I would urge you to move away from that. The author of a piece can frame it however they want to frame it, as long as their editor goes along with it. If you want to say "Hey, I'd like to hear more about the game series you didn't choose, that seems interesting to me" then I think you're on the right track. "You're doing it wrong! Your writing is too biased"? That's not going to get a good reaction. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 1:54AM liquidsoap89 said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @liquidsoap89 Here's 2 editorials that I really enjoyed... http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/05/12/a-death-is-for-life-not-just-for-quickload/ http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/03/editorial-how-mainstream-games-butchered-themselves-and-why-its-my-fault/ Honestly I don't know what I like about those ones that I can't find in this one... I think maybe it's the presentation? Those ones feel more like a story that I'm reading, while this one feels a little more like it's the writer telling me what's what. I don't know... Now I'm all confused, and I've read too much to want to read any more today and I'm going to bed. Sorry to be a downer. But I always believe constructive criticism (if you can call this that) is better than none at all. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 2:19AM (Unverified) said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @liquidsoap89 Those are good pieces, but they're different pieces. If I wanted to write a personal account of my time with Ultima, I could. But instead I went with a more direct style. It seemed to fit the premise better. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 2:22AM liquidsoap89 said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @liquidsoap89 After reading this again I can conclude that this feels a lot like a list... I couldn't tell you why, but I do not like lists... Period... I'd say just disregard whatever I said before. This is just something that I've got a grudge with. Keep on writing editorials for Joystiq, those are probably what I would say is most lacking on the site right now. If you want to change your style to make ME happy (don't) than that would be awesome, but editorials that one person might not enjoy are always better than none. Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 2:44AM (Unverified) said * 2 hearts * [IMG] [IMG] Report @liquidsoap89 It's not really a list. It uses categories to organize thoughts. Do you not ready books because they have chapters? Reply [IMG] Posted: Jan 27th 2012 12:05AM soniccar said * 1 heart * [IMG] [IMG] Report Most important game I'll never play, you say? 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