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Site Visitor E-Mail October 2002 Anyway I want to 'enlighten' my friend who was the one who invited me. All he says is that there are positive remarks and negative remarks and the negative remarks come mostly from former distributors. And he would rather spend time listening to remarks that come from people who are making money. He just doesn't realize that those people make money from unsuspecting people like them. Well its just a few months so the enthusiasm is still hard to shake off. I wan't to point out however that no matter how negative the remarks are, its the truth--and the truth hurts. I came across some news about false advertising and these facts are incontrovertible. And i pointed out that the book by jim dornan, although its true it had 7 billion in sales in 1997 it never even got close to that in the years that follow. I also compared the products and he just said the reason they're more expensive is that their imported. I guess it would take a long while before I get my message through. Any ideas? :( Scott, We became IBO's in Quixtar after being badgered non-stop by a 'friend' for nearly a month. It sounded like a good idea at the time, anyway. We thought 'what could it hurt - we'll just buy from ourselves for the first couple of months to see if we get to the magic number (300BV) and then see about inviting others'. Well, we made our first big purchase from our friend, and what we would consider our 'bi-weekly' allotment of goods amounted to a whopping 12 points. So we figured that if we completely converted ALL of the purchases we could over to Quixtar, we *might* get 100 points a month. A far cry from what we were told at the meetings. In fact, our 'friend', who has been doing this at least a month or two longer than we have, only cleared 300 points this last month due to OUR PURCHASES. Not only do all of the products have 'Amway' printed on them (which made me feel a bit queasy in the first place), but some of them simply suck! I'll admit the dishwashing and laundry detergents are pretty good - although I just read about the water softener trick, Doh! - but the foodstuffs are just nasty and, something my wife complained about ad nauseum, who in the hell is going to buy a sponge that costs $3.00? It was pretty obvious from the start that the only people who get the good money are those who are in it from the very beginning. They go 'Platinum' or 'Emerald' and then can afford to go around and teach others how to add to their downline, and thus make THEM more money. I questioned our motivational speaker's choice of high-end automobile... If you're making $150k/year JUST from Quixtar as he says, why in the hell would you buy a Lexus? I'm sure Lexus makes a fine automobile, but...come on. It's STILL a japanese car. Buy a 7-series BMW, for christ's sake. Our 'friend' has been bothering my wife even more ever since we bought into the program, too. From the motivational tapes to the positive reinforcement mailing lists... And the constant badgering, trying to get us to buy Buy BUY! Her, more than anything else, has caused us to lose interest. High-pressure sales techniques turn us off, and it seems like the ONLY way to succeed in this 'business' is to become a car salesman. A greasy, sweaty-palmed, quick-talking car salesman. No thanks, Quixtar. We won't be buying from our upline anymore (decided before we saw your site - this is just the final nail), and all of the catalogs we were talked into getting for our 'prospects' will probably hit the recycle bin sometime soon. I, for one, can't wait until the apple breakfast bars are gone so I don't have to try and stomach those nasty things anymore. Thanks for an enlightening read. -R & J I'm French so dont care about my english Why are you writing some junk like that about Quixtar and compare it to AMWAY have you ever saw the reel business plan of Quixtar presented to you(maybe not) anyway did you know witch business have made the higest nuber of millionnar in the world, can you named me another that had do this?? And why when you give some result in your calculate you false the result by adding only a few people that are active in the business??? The new concept of Quixtar is not comparable with AMWAY. Anyway you probably are some of them that try the business and have do nothing so your result have been nothing. you are just a few one on the internet that wright some Sh... and had no other thing to do in your day than wright some junk... Dear Scott, I want to thank you for the excellent information provided on your site, and share my experiences with Network 21 in Australia. Reading through your material was a real slap in the face, which I needed. It is embarrassing to admit how easily I almost fell for it. This thing was started by Jim and Nancy Dornan, who left Amway (so we are told) with their own vision. They came across as creepy and false in what I saw of them. I got as far as attending a preview and a weekend conference. Along the way was a bombardment of tapes from my uplines. In the business preview, a lot of references were made to Robert (Rich Dad) Kiyosaki, whom they say endorses network 21. He doesn't really, however. The most he says is to consider it (I listened to his tape). Half the talk was spent describing Kiyosaki's "cashflow quadrant." They rushed over their system, which is confusing. I was told by my upline that "you need to go through it about four times before you'll get it." Members have to pay $6 to attend (guests are free) to cover the cost of the room hire. They also have to drive people to and from the meetings. At the end, a bunch of members deliver their rehearsed "success stories." The message: There is something wrong with you if you don't get onboard the e-commerce revolution, you don't want to miss out, etc. The weekend conference was scary, my first impression being "American Evangelists." However their enthusiasm wins you over, and soon enough I was pumped up. There is something artificial and forced about everything that happens though. the American guests' motivational stories are peppered with ideas stolen from people like Brian Tracy. It is also dumbed down somewhat. However it's impossible not to get inspired by them. They focus on the changes to lives they make, and to the help they are providing to people in third world countries - where they are expanding. They also have aligned themselves with World Vision, a charity, which sponsors kids in third world countries. The seating was cramped and uncomfortable for everyone, except diamonds and platinums. Speakers made a real point of this over and over again. They get plush seats and have attendants bring them drinks. Everyone was urged to sign up for the yearly conference and shell out $170. On top of that they pushed their tapes and books. Just about every Diamond has their inspirational story available on tape, which you have to buy. They stressed the importance of the "Why" as opposed to the "How" and how to use your goals to drive your business to success. i.e. emotional involvement. Their system is focussed on getting enough people in your frontline. They want you to go out and start calling your top prospects before you even know that you are doing. They vaunt their "business support" material, which really just teaches you how to convince people to join. However it does build confidence, if only because the phone calls are so well scripted and designed to overcome specific objections. You are encouraged to redirect Amway questions. The "list" is all-important. You must find and get your top frontline people as soon as possible. it is all a rush. You are encouraged to hook your family first. They have meetings where they coach you and get you to start making calls. My upline said: "With experience, you'll begin to see everyone you meet as prospects." I found this happening to me, which is disturbing to say the least. You are encouraged to use their system, and not your own ideas. "Is it duplicable?" they always say. You are supposed to get out of the way. An important book is called "personality plus" which is supposed to help you identify and relate to people as "phlegmatic" and "melancholic" - terms based on a medieval belief system. It is hard to believe anyone could still subscribe to this crap. The Amway questions are handled like this (word for word, I am not paraphrasing): during one-on-one: "We have a single service provider.(hushed voice) Amway. (quickly moving on to something else)" at business preview: "The company has completely restructured itself during the past two years, to take advantage of the e-commerce revolution" "Amway is one of the many companies we deal with." "Most people only have an idea of what Amway was 40 years ago." You are encouraged to achieve a 100% household usage. The manipulative term "if you are serious about the business" is used to get you to buy tapes and attend events. They even throw in stuff about the sacrifices made by your upline, how they put you first. It's impossible to have a conversation with these people that does not involve Network 21. This organization selling false hope and preying on people at weak times in their lives. The more people know about it, the better. I hope my info has been of help to you. John. My question to you is WHY spend the time doing this? do you think you are doing someone a favor? I have worked real hard to get to founders platinum and it has been worth every minute of it. yes it is work anything worthwhile is. I don't go to work anymore I do spend more time with my family and this business is a lot of fun. So again WHY ? I will bet you wont put my e-mail on your site unchanged will you? Amway: Heaven or Hell My wife and I were members of the Amway /Quixtar business for four years. Initially I joined because I was tired of doing long shifts as a registered nurse on a busy psychiatric unit. I was attracted to the concept of financial independence and residual income. I had no fear of hard work and was intrigued by the concept of investing in myself / wife/ future by building an Amway business. Needless to say - I jumped in and got to work. At first it seemed like a dream come true. I was suddenly surrounded by people who treated me better than my best friend or family. I was in what I thought was the closest thing to heaven. All I had to do was follow a simple business system and invest 100% of my effort and we would all enjoy drinks with little umbrellas in them for the rest of our lives! I won't bore you with the details but we immediately began showing the plan religiously to everything with a pulse or could develop a pulse. We quickly became identified as team players and made any sacrifice to promote the business. I didn't mind being exhausted and sacrificed sleep to make our dream of financial freedom arrive sooner. This meant showing up at work mentally and physically exhausted but not letting anyone know. Everything was portrayed as a positive experience when related to the business. I remember team player meetings where people joked about the things they would do to sponsor people etc. Anything that worked was quickly duplicated by everyone. Some of them sounded beyond reason but were readily applauded by upline leaders. My ruby upline often joked about falling asleep at the wheel after a marathon driving session and waking up in the middle of a field. I was behind the wheel in the middle of the night on a marathon driving session across Canada with a few cross line friends when we hit a deer. We didn't stop, blink or ever say a word to each other about it. We didn't have the energy to think. Thinks that would seem irrational to any human being outside the business were accepted as second nature to all of us "in the know" The philosophy of half truths, deception, creating a positive image at all costs started to take it's toll. Nobody could risk letting anyone else see a fragment of weakness or questioning in any other member. To question would risk being branded a non team player player player and being cut out of the circle of knowledge. Everyone agreed with everything proposed by the upline even if it was ludicrous. For example - our upline ruby preached about the virtues of being beyond reproach in our public image. It surprised me when I went to his house to find the filthiest mess I have ever seen. Dishes that hadn't been washed in weeks etc, yelling at his kids and belittling his wife in front of others. I spent time with my upline diamond who stuffed a wad of chewing tobacco in his mouth while we were speaking. This was on the same weekend he preached the Sunday morning service at the function. I guess ideals die quickly in business. Contradictions permeated the organization. What began as a dream slowly became a nightmare. We began to realize that we couldn't sponsor fast enough. We couldn't buy enough personal use products to get to the next level without going broke, we couldn't be positive enough etc etc, The price of success kept getting higher. Every hour of sleep became an hour that I stole from my business so I avoided it whenever possible. I frequently dropped my wife off at her job after having no sleep for 24 or more hours. This was not unusual and we didn't mind until our upline started to question our willingness to do "whatever it takes to succeed". This took on a new meaning as doing whatever the upline tells you to do. If this meant buying $1,000 dollars worth of books, tapes or cookware on 10 minutes notice - then that was O.K. We continued to take the business very seriously, investing all our time and money until we could no longer continue. My upline offered support that meant little. When I told him I was beginning to experience health problems such as seizures when I got too tired -he stated that it was only a limitation if I let it be one. There was no logic to things being told us which seemed to be a huge contrast to the simple "truths" we ate up like manna from heaven when we joined. I believed in doing things to 100% of my ability and was surprised that many others weren't doing the same. After three years of total commitment to the business I evaluated what we had achieved and what would be required to become financially independent. My upline had become much more demanding and had little patience for anyone that wasn't a team player. In English this meant that I needed to buy even more books, products, tapes, get even less sleep etc etc. sharing the simple business plan became a process of "Telling people what they want to hear", "Withholding information that they wouldn't be able to handle", "tell them anything to get them to the meeting" and on and on. One day it dawned on me that I wouldn't wish the suffering I was going through on my worst enemy - so how could I continue? The Quixtar business was my next attempt to continue and I pursued this for a year before realizing that Amway would do anything to eliminate people who dared to say that Amway and Quixtar were affiliated. I made a small webpage and put the Amway and Quixtar name on the same page. My Amway membership was pulled temporarily and it was then I realized that I was in a no-win situation. The company that I ruined my health for was threatening to sue me for stating a simple fact. I have since developed a neurological disorder that has all but eliminated my ability to work at a full time job and have been on unpaid disability for the last three years. I quit Amway but still maintain a casual friendship with some of the well-meaning people who stay in for the social bonding. We went through a two-year tax audit related of our tax loss claims for the Amway years. This was eventually dropped and we have avoided home business ideas as we were told we would be audited again if we try to claim any business losses. We kept meticulous bookwork throughout our Amway period and this saved our bacon. I still believe in free enterprise cringe at when I see others getting sucked in to similar businesses. The level of frustration for ex-members like myself cannot be adequately expressed in words. In summary - we survived a cult masquerading as a business. It could have cost us our lives and we are thankful we were spared This wasn't quite what I had in mind the day I went to listen to the business plan! I am a 21 year old college student, and I have been in the buisness for 6 months now and my last 2 months have given me a NET income of over $550. I only personally use $210 worth of Quixtar products,which I would have bought from the regular mall every month anyway. Plus they last me almost twice as long. Recommending these core line products so that I can get my minimum 50PV worth of sales is a piece of cake. So ever since I started, my income has been increasing, and is not going to stop if I continue what I am doing. So sure this business will cost me some money in the beginning but what other business won't? The reason you keep talking about average numbers in your report is because most people think this is a "get rich quick scam", and that is far from the case. This requires a lot of work and dedication. Most people who do this are flat out losers, and is why the Quixtar average income is so low. Most people just quit, because they don't see large amounts of money right into the business. I have a feeling that you may be one of them, that just didn't give it your best. Poor Jeff Bezos CEO of amazon.com has a huge company and is still in the red. The difference with him is that he believes his dream before seeing it. This is a quality that most Americans just don't have. I would like to hear your response to this. Thank you Eric HOW DO KINDLY TELL A PERSISTENT FRIEND YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE BUSINESS? See www.amquix.info/Amway_no.html Glad I had a chance to see your page as well as others in regards to Amway/Quixtar. I have recently been approached here in Canada about starting up my own IBO. It sounded too good to be true. The book given to me was titled "Prosumerism" and it sounded exciting....at first. But I decided to do some research here on the net and it did not take me long to see that Quixtar was an affiliate of AMWAY. Then I knew something was up...because of the practice of AMWAY. So after reading your msg's and others I have decided not to invest my hard earned taxed dollars into this scheme, were products are secondary and recruitment is first. But before I came to a complete conclusion.....I rec'd a bunch of tapes (free to use) to listen to. The first was by Casey Combden on "Getting started with Interbiz Business System", ever heard of him or the tape? Anways I got about 3/4 of the way thru and couldn't help to think that I was listening to Jimmy Swaggart or Jim Baker preaching. He was very adamant about attending all of the weekly seminars, monthly and yearly conferences....that to miss one would mean financial doom, that the other person would be the millionaire. So goes to be true of what I read on yours and others web pages about how alot of the money to be made by the higher ups is thru the seminars, tapes and books. So I guess I must earn my money the old fashion way..............hard work and sweat. Thanks again. Dave Gilbert My best friend in the whole world was abducted by these people. We have been friends for 15 years and now she won't speak to me because I am not in Quixtar like her. I am hurt and pissed that a company is allowed to do this in America. These people are brainwashed and this company destroys families. I am so grateful to you for helping to tell the truth about these people. I wish I would have known about this site before my friend got sucked in. I don't think I can save her now. I miss her. Thank you again for all you are doing. God Bless hey there, my parents got into the busines 8 yrs ago. i was 17 at the time and im 24 now. it just wasnt for them. same way i once tried to sell clothing at a retail store and i suxed at it. it just wasnt my thing. anyhow, my point is this. in the section about louie and kathy carrillo. someone said they were fake and bad ppl. thats is so far from the truth. i met them briefy when there were in australia with there children. i had the pleasure of showing there 3 wonderfull kids around ( 2 of them were around my age) they were great kids. not spoilt considering there wealt. not brads. just great teens that i had fun with. if u dont agree with the business, thats fine. but no need to attack louie or his great family. cheers paul australia I have read your web page. You are very articulate and correct in your view of Amway. I am a former distributor. It does have faults, however it also gives an individual the possibility of becoming successful. Is it easy, no, but it can be done. Myself I quit, not because of Amway, but because of some personal issues in my life. Amway is not perfect, but if you have what it takes, and it takes a lot, but what doesn't, it is as good as any other business and better than most. Can I ask a question? All those who have been involved in Quixtar are quick to bash this web site with harsh words and name calling. My question is can you prove that this information is wrong? I want to know if the math models and equations that are presented here inaccurate or not. I have no experience with Quixtar personally but constantly hear about it through friends. Looking at the models presented here I might do a better job working a 9-5 and simply investing my money wisely. Help me out here. This is a good business, why would Disney, Bass Pro shop and 400 other big retailers be involved in this, because the internet is where it at. Order on line, receive your purchases at your front door. How wonderful! We have 2 kids, very busy schedules and this is where we want to grow. Do you know that people have good and bad experiances with many things, look up WallMart and GM. Dream, Dream Big, then go to work and make it happen, that is what it takes. We are happy IBO's. "Great site, Scott. You're 1 in a million. The Schwartz will be with you, always." http://www.amquix.info/aus/index.htm Boy, them Diamond goons play hardball Crucify 'em with their own words I suggest you put down your calculator and try to open your mind to the possibilities of owning a low overhead/low startup/ no income ceiling type of business like that of Amway or Quixtar. The "system" tapes, books, seminars you refer to as money makers for the upline would be like gold to any "traditional" startup type business owner. Don't know if you want to have this conversation, but I met with Lennon Ledbetter (spelling?) in his 3.6 million Utah home yesterday. Man he's long winded, many Amway folk are that way and I don't like it. I'm considering pursuing Quixtar. I still have reservations so I don't know if it will happen or not. I haven't read much from your web page yet, but it seems like many of the poor numbers for Quixtar at this early point might just be start up bugs that any company has. Takes a while to figure our what works and what doesn't. Also, you reference some articles from Forbes 1985. 1985? Is there really anything relevant that I should consider that's 17 years old? I'm going to read more of your web page, but I'll pass on information that is more than 7 years old. Also, as I read more of your web page, I worry that much of the info that isn't dated is too old to be reliable. Of course, anything talking about Quixtar directly can't be outdated because THAT company is too new, so that's the info that will interest me. That's my thoughts, Here in the Philippines, there is a new 'business' said to be independent of the Amway corp. It's called network twentyone. I was hoping someone would shed some light about it since I can't find a lot of in depth sites on this group. However I have found some strikingly similar features, aside from carrying Amway products and tyring up Quixtar. I borrowed some tapes and the speakers are Amway distributors, but some tapes have them speaking about network twentyone instead like Mr Kyosaki in "What IF". Maybe they just edited it, well the ending note still follows the same line "While the techniques and approaches suggested on this tape may have worked from others, no one can guarantee that they will work for you. We hope however, that the ideas presented here will assist you in developing a strong and profitable business...." Then it goes on saying the tape was made independently of Amway and is not endorsed or reviewed by the Amway corporation. I also think its funny that I think they just made a new makeover here in my country. And they claim that network twentyone is already six years old here. Hope you could shed some light in this I am still keeping my options and my mind open about this, they claim they are NOT Amway, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Thanks gorge Scott- Diamond pins in the October iAchieve.. They are (big drum roll playing) Ajmani, Bhat, Boucard, and Popovich. All have been listed numerous times in previous months. It doesn't seem like too many people are qualifying these days. I also found something interesting on their site. They are advertising, hey you can achieve in 2 years, 3 legs, 20 deep making 100k. Can I plug those numbers into your calculator? What are the odds of that happening? We sponsored and sponsored and sponsored, etc., you get the picture and like a month later all of these people we got in the business were gone. Our upline kept saying, your not recruiting enough high quality people who want more for their lives, so out we would go again prospecting all of the Barnes and Nobles, Car washes, looking for sharp, go-getters. I became quite good at starting conversations with total strangers. We met a lot of good people and recruited a lot of them but they never stayed in for long. Even if you did sponsor that many people in 2 years you wouldn't have enough who stuck around for you to get to that level. We know for a fact that Dave and Jude Hutson, Diamonds under Parker Grabill (Gooch line), have not qualified for quite a few years as Diamonds. They may not even be qualifying as Emeralds. We know this because we were personals (qualifying as Q12 Platinums). We quit in 2000 and know of another direct leg of theirs that also quit around the same time. We quit building the business because we found out about the "tool scam". We knew we could not continue to build the business and sleep at night, we value our integrity. If you would like to contact us, feel free to reply to this e-mail. Dallas and Kim Bell Stanton, MI Scott ~ Funny how time passes my memory fades...I know that Jody was married prior to Kathy and that his first wife (don't know her first name) was "negative" and wanted out of the biz. They had 3 kids together Steve, Terry and Joseph. Steve has since married and his wife already had a kid (sort of like "The Firm"...get her pregnant before she can get out...lol). Terry married Greg Frauman (son of "diamonds" Bob & Jan Frauman) and Joe (at the time we were still in the biz) was considered "the most eligible bachelor in the world"...ROFLOL. For what it's worth I know that Jody also had facial reconstructive surgery a long time ago to correct an overbite of sorts and prior to getting involved with Dex, he had facial hair (a moustache). The rule was that facial hair made you "unrelatable"...but when you have as much $$ as Dex, who cares if you're unrelateable... F***ing Drones... Kathy is now his main squeeze and speaks about the "children" as if they were her own. God forbid they should speak about Jody's failed marriage from stage...a chink in the king's almighty armor. Thanks Scott. I really appreciate your website and all of the work you've done. I know you hear that often but I was and still am amazed at the analytical detail into the business analysis,etc.,that you've done. I wish I thought more like you when I first got into INA. When I look back on my involvement, I think to myself, why did I get so into this, when the numbers and facts are so clear? I consider myself to be an intelligent and educated person but when my husband was recruited by a coworker and he insisted on being involved, I guess I didn't want to be left behind. The group dynamics are very powerful. I wanted to belong to something and "walk the beaches of the world" with my upline. Actually, the numbers weren't so clear. WE really did think going diamond would take care of us financially, emotionally, etc for the rest of our lives. I mean that is what we were told. I never even thought to run the numbers myself. It didn't even occur to me. We recruited a lot of my husband's family. His brother is still going to all functions. We don't discuss why we don't go to any. It's a very touchy subject. His mother still goes sometimes. She recruited someone recently who is "on fire". Will see how long that lasts. Everything in INA now is "Cashflow Forums", Robert Kiyosaki and all of his books. Oh, I also wanted to know your source for saying that if your site was incorrect Quixtar would shut you down. I have seen a lot of other websites, that were just a bunch of people complaining and a lot of it didn't seem true. They really didn't do their research like you did Take Care Christine Scott, Someone my wife works with is trying to get her interested in a company called BWW. Is that a part of Amway? The sales pitch sure sounds similar. Thanks, Keith Hi! I have a friend who is thinking about joining Quixtar because he says it will save him money in tax write-offs. Is this true or is he just being brainwashed. Please let me know. Thanks Scott, Weird. I remember writing an e-mail. No idea why it vanished like that. At any rate, what I said is that I'm pretty sure Jody Victor & his original wife are divorced. Years ago I looked at the old Conn books from the '70s. One of them had a profile on Jody & his wife. The thing is, the wife's name wasn't the same as the wife listed in the Profiles of Success (I believe his wife was then named Kathy). Also the Profiles mentioned (If I remember correctly) that he & his wife got married around the time he went double diamond - and the Conn profile on Jody was before he reached that stage. Also, (& here my memory is really hazy) I think the Profiles of Success began its comment on Jody by talking about how he had to raise some kids as a single dad before meeting Kathy - made it sound like he was a widower without actually saying he was - which sure sounds like how you'd expect a Yager Profiles to handle a divorce. You may want to add him to your list - at least the bottom list of missing spouses. Also, you only list Foley as a diamond, though I thought he made it to crown ambassador (when I was in he was a triple diamond). You mention Leif Johnson on your divorced diamonds list. I think I heard somewhere (the Insider's Message board? Not sure. Proabably could've told you two years ago) - that Leif has been divorced three times now. Just thought this may help you update your divorced diamonds list. Fun to see Childers got divorced from his blonde trophy wife. Not surprising at all. Chris Dear Scott, I have been reading your site with great interest. Please do not post my email address. I was curious if you have heard from Louie Carrillo recently. I know that he is no longer associated with the Pronet organization after his negative complaints about the upline interfering with his BSM $$$ in foreign markets. It is my understanding that he has been suspended from Pronet and it not allowed to attend any upline Foley/Woods functions. I spoke to my Diamond and they said this was the discipline he must receive for the damage he caused. I have been a distributor for a long time and went "Silver Producer" early on, I have not been actively building the business is the last 4 years. I began to see the increase in tool promotion around 1996 and followed in line because of loyalty to my upline. In the back of my mind I always questioned the expense of the business (which does not explain why for the last 6 years I continued to buy the Tapes of the week and kept the Web Site and purchased the BOM) I did try to attend a function once a year in hopes of jump starting my business because there were no BBS in my area. My entire upline were no longer active and I fell directly beneath my Diamond. Shortly after, I began to notice that several Emeralds and Diamonds were no longer allowed to speak (Hart, etc) and their tapes were not being promoted. When I began to inquire to several people "cross line", I was told that they (Harts) had gone off the deep end religiously speaking and the Corporation would not allow them to speak. It was later that I heard about the problems of the "TOOLS" and some ethical situations. It was about this time frame that the TIF split from Pronet came and that is when I read about the lawsuitsI involving Hart, Rummell, Foley, Stewart, etc and was able to confirm it. I am now in the process of regaining my financial life and even starting a business. Rather than ramble on, I just wanted to say thank you for the information that you provided. I have some great experiences from Amway/Quixtar and the books have helped me in my career, I only wish that I had opened my eyes earlier. Thanks. Dan Hi Scott, To best of my knowledge, Tim and Connie are not together. His picture is the only one in the Profiles and he speaks alone on the stage, There are some rumors about the whole situation, but I do not have the facts. I do know that because of it he was not allowed to speak on stage for two years and his group is no longer the size it was. This is also part of the reason that TIF began to move away from Pronet (along with the BSM situation). I remember when my wife and I first heard about Bill Childers and his divorce, how shocked we were that two people who had so much money and seemed perfect together on stage, could not get along. Then came Ken and Donna Stewart and other diamonds and when we questioned this, we were told "people get divorced every day and it does not matter if they are in this business or not." (Except for the teaching of family values and how you build the business together.) I do know that a diamond that was under Foley that has "sold out" is Terry McEwen. They built a house across the lake from the Foleys. He was the youngest diamond at 23 and was always beside Tim, now he is gone! I know now that I was just naive, and was brought up in this believing that your upline would never do anything that would hurt you or your business, I also believed in the "Hope" that this would work for me. For this reason, I did what they said and promoted the system because it was like an education in business. It never entered my mind that a profit was being made on what they produced. One last thing just happened this week. I did not renew my Pronet web site this past year for obvious reasons, but I had kept my "Genie" telephone service. I wanted to cancel so I we online to search for Pacific Telcom in order to contact them and ran across this site and discovered the connection with Jim Floor and "Genie". I was angry, I too was told that the reason that we left Amvox was because they could not meet the needs of the business. The last message that I heard was from my diamond talking about the line up for this weekends "Free Enterprise" in Atlanta, Ga, and the primary speaker was Jim Floor! I must tell you that I am mad at myself more than anyone, but there were people above me that knew the struggles that my family has been through the last 14 years and yet they still encouraged us to buy tapes and books and attend functions even though we were not building the business. Thank you again for responding to my email, maybe one day we will have a chance to meet in person and I could share other information. I know that I am just one of many that you have talked to and I am sure that there will be more to come. I hope that others will see the statement that you mate regarding the System and the success rate, if only 1% of the people are successful, maybe the system is failing! Thanks again, Dan Hi Scott Here is a potted version of our story: My wife and I got into the Britt line of sponsorship in the UK in 1990. As a result of decisions made at big functions I decided to leave my job We had a -L-60,000 inheritance from my mother in law so while I built my wife continued to work It took us 3 years to become Silver Producers with no job to interfere. I was full time in the business - not 8-10 hours per week! Needless to say our business was not built on sound foundations in spite of counseling upline - we expected too much from too few distributors. At that time we believed the hype and ignored the fact that the average distributor from the 300PV per month like ourselves, down to the people who did nothing, only averaged 50PV per month. Added to that Amway moved the goal posts in about 1995 so that to get to 21% distributors from then on until today need 10,000 PV to reach the 21% level in the UK. We did manage to qualify at the Silver Level once more for one month in 1997. After that we lost heart because our business fell back to 15%. Lots of people get stuck at 15%, which is 4000PV in the UK. In 1996 I got another job as the inheritance money was fast running out. This year our upline Pearl (he was Ruby when we got in 1990 ) took the leader of our strongest leg ( 15% ) to a big function the States. As a result he came back fired up and proclaiming that this October he would be in Platinum qualification,,,,,,,,,,, It is now October and he still is only 12%! This particular leg leader runs around the country doing more work than nearly any one else that I know in the business (along side his shifts) and still has a 15% pin with a 12% volume. Our upline (still only a Pearl) runs around 30 hours at least a week trying to prevent his revolving door business falling apart completely. His defense is that he enjoys it. It doesn't look much like FREEDOM to me! One standing order book that was of great help to us was Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. Ironically two years ago, because of that book we found something not like Amway but much better. As a result of putting Kiyosaki's advise into action, we have turned around a situation in 2000 where we were -L-26,000 in debt to a situation today where we find ourselves -L-60,000 better off! We are still IBO s as we love the products, and even sell a few. We also get a small bonus each month but we no longer waste it on tapes books (apologies to Rich Dad Poor Dad) and functions, because we have found something better in the real world where the facts do count. Regards Malcolm and Helen Ketteridge Hi Scott Further to my posting of October 2002 here are some clear warnings for all those considering the Quixtar / Amivo UK On Line business opportunity as a way to fulfil their dreams. THE MEETING The scam starts here where the speaker attempts to get you the Prospect/Guest excited with YOUR DREAMS. A new car, house, money, holidays, getting out of debt, or giving to charity etc. He will then go on to: THE PLAN Or the 6 4 2. with a 200 in the circle - the business plan could be explained using actual figures that are typically achieved, however this will not be the case because in reality no one has ever succeeded at it in the way it is explained. Plan will be touted as being a model - the speaker will say " I've got the pen so every one will do 200..............ha ha ha. THE REALITY In reality the average IBO (Independent Business Owner) does about 50PV per month. The plan he shows should read: You + 24, 16, 8 = 316 circles to do 15800PV. But the truth is that no one has ever done it in the 8 - 10 hours a week along side a full time job! The real costs of building the business are never mentioned: Ask him what the real costs are.......................! AWKWARD QUESTIONS Awkward questions will be pushed aside and answered on a one to one basis. Q. How much are you making? A. You wouldn't believe me if I told you......... Which means:: if you knew how little it really was you wouldn't understand why I'm still faking it till I make it like I have for the last 5 or 6 years. At no time do you the guest at the meeting get the chance to ask intelligent questions such as " who are the people in this room who have actually succeeded in fulfilling their dreams with the 2 - 5 year plan mentioned by the speaker? At best, the speaker is typically an Emerald Pin (achieved maybe 7 years ago) has learned with one or two others, how to replace the 50% who quit from his organization each year. NEVER A NET PROFIT Normally. you the guest will be completely unaware that 99% of those in the room and have been in the business for months and in some cases, even years, HAVE NEVER EVER HAD A NET PROFIT FROM THE BUSINESS YOU ARE BEING SHOWN. Those non profitable 99% are told, to say to guests, if asked how long they have been in the business, or how much they are making etc etc to say " I've only just started to take it seriously" or some other non committal or misleading statement.. SELLING Perhaps, if the Corporation ever have the guts to enforce their 10 customer per month rule and make the average IBO sell 200PV per month, or not pay them a bonus as it states in the Code of Conduct and Rules, their "plan" would give IBOs a net profit. Trying to work the plan has disheartened thousands upon thousands of IBO s over the last 43 years. If all those people had become customers, today the Amway turnover would be many times greater than the meager $4,5 billion worldwide it is today! Most do not buy from Amway IBOs for 2 reasons 1. IBOs do not know how to sell 2. The prospective customer, the "no not for me, but I would like to run a test on the products," has seen through the hype and wants no more to do with it. UNANSWERED QUESTIONS All your questions having NOT been answered, you will be asked to get together with the person / couple who introduced you within the next 24/48 hours at what is called THE FOLLOW UP. THE FOLLOW UP OR FOLLOW THROUGH The person who introduced you will have been edified (you might even believe they can walk on water) by the speaker to encourage you to take them seriously. At the Follow Up your potential sponsor will have been taught to make you the prospect speak about your DREAMS and how you want to get out of Debt etc. You will then be lead up the garden path so you believe that what you have seen (though of course they will tell you, you did not understand it properly) is a vehicle that will enable you to achieve your DREAMS. You will be encouraged to get to see the BIGGER PICTURE The less experienced will bring in an upline who knows from experience how to sucker you in. THE BIGGER PICTURE You will be encouraged to get to a Week End Function / Rally which in fact will be a good dose of brain washing and hype topped off by the Non Denominational Sunday Morning Service! Apart from all the hype, the point of the bigger picture functions is to sell as many tapes and books as possible to existing IBOs and to persuade you to become a Core Team Player by doing what are called the 8 Team Steps. THE 8 TEAM STEPS We did the 8 Team Steps for most of the first 8 years in the business: We showed the plan We sell some products We were and still are 100% self use We bought and listened to all the tapes We bought and read all the books We attended all the Functions We remained teachable We are still accountable AFTER THE FUNCTION After the Function (designed to fire up you and up to 600 others - could be 25,000 in the USA ) you and your sponsor or upline will diary a time to build the all important list. You will be taught how to contact new people as the list is considered the lifeblood of a growing business. However, over the years I have seen some of the very best contact/prospectors quit - even at the 21% level! At this time all the Network organizations in the UK teach, is how to recruit from a list of names of all the people who know you. 100% SELF USE You will also be taught to change your buying habits and be your own best customer which is termed 100% self use. Word of mouth recommendation of products does not work well enough to obtain sustained retail sales over a large range, however fantastic and economical price per use they prove to be for you. The pile it high sell it cheap + TV ads of the major well known brands are more than a match for the sales pitch you will be taught which will be: " try this sample and if you like it I'll get you some" IBO BUYING CLUB The "business" has just become a buying club for IBOs who sometimes attempt using the "sample tray " method to attract new clients (who buy at retail) or members (who buy at cost). 80% of all products end up with IBOs as the end consumer NOT a retail client or the member. They, your upline, in reality have no real idea of how to teach you how to create a strong and profitable business. Along side our 200 - 300 PV per month 100% self use, our own limited success at reaching a retail volume of 600 PV per month came from selling SA8 to Nursing Homes up to about 1997. This proved to be temporary volume that withered away as the virtually unteachable laundry staff threw the powder in to the machines as if it were the brand x they were used to at home, thus it became very expensive for the Nursing Homes to use. Even with this volume I realized that with the cost of delivery I barely broke even! IS IT AN ILLEGAL PYRAMID? Technically, as has been pointed out many times, the business, as it is run by most IBO s is an illegal pyramid because the 10 customer per month rule is not enforced. The Founders of the Amway Corporation from 1959 onwards, emphasized that it takes selling the products to succeed but this has almost completely been lost sight of by most IBOs and their mentors. The Founders and the present day management certainly disapprove of the pyramid type methods used to sell and profit from the Tapes Books and Functions out of the pockets of the ordinary IBOs. See many other previous postings for the lurid details. How the Function and Tools loot was to be divided up between the bigger pins has caused at least one organization in the UK to split up! TAX REFUNDS Although most IBOs never declare their Amway business (because they are not making any money) in the UK the bigger pins will tell you that tax refunds can be got as a result of building the business. That is true For example we had -L-315 tax refund in 2002 for our 2000 - 2001 trade. However, it doesn't take much intelligence to realize that at a basic rate of tax 20% in the UK the amount of money from the own pockets in the year was -L-1575. In fact over the last 12 years we spent a total of -L-26,000 from our own pockets on our business. In the early years we did not claim a Tax refund because we believed that the business would take off so that the losses could be set off against future profits. As it is, the Tax man still owes us -L-5000 but it is now too late to claim it back. WHO IS TELLING THE TRUTH? If IBOs in the UK come across this posting I'll be glad for them to learn why we will never ever go to another meeting. I assume that, if they ever ask where Malcolm and Helen are these days, they will be told that they have an agenda of their own. Our Upline Pearl and Emerald IBOs do know the truth. and we are keeping them informed about how well we are on track to recoup our Amway losses through a real and ethical business in the real world. One day perhaps they will have the humility to ask to join us. Regards Malcolm and Helen Ketteridge Your site was e-mailed to me and after spending less than 10 minutes reading your dribble, I decided that you need to get a real life and realize that it is not up to you to decide for others whether a business opportunity is good or bad for them. Surprisingly enough the American public has a brain and does not require any imput from what little you appear to have and or use. Dream stealers such as yourself are small minded, mean spirited nasty individuals who lead a misserably life that for some reason you feel others should too. I feel really sorry for you and hope that somehow you wake up and mind your own business. That business should be finding Christ in your life and making up for what negative output you are spewing! Hi, I feel sorry for you that you are reproducing a system where you teach people to work for $3 per hour. Only through your clever pyramid payment system does it seem a legitimate business to you. There are gullible people all around us. I find the most gullible people in your business. Regards, Scott Please don't waste my time by e-mailing me any more of your cultural brainwashing--go to school, get a job and retire rich. Please...................any business opportunity that allows you to reach for the best in yourself is better than putting up with bosses who are only interested in making money for themselves at your time expense. Why don't you check out what kind of money you make in that industry. or any commission only job. The good thing about those jobs is you never have a ceiling. You can keep going up and no one can tell you how much you can make, when you can take a vacation, what kind of car to drive, etc. And if you think all of that is cult programming, so be it. At least we give people some hope, something more to live for than social security (what an oximoron that is) and some little pension to finish off their life in obscurity. No thanks! But at least that's safe and I'm sure that's your ultimate goal in life because it doesn't take any real thought. Good luck. I'll be better off for trying even if I don't make a million dollars , than you will ever be! I forgot to tell you in my other letter but God directs what I write. He is my inspiration and drives to get the word out. He asked me to drive the "Amway money changers" out of the Church. He wants the Amway business and Christianity to be separate. God is just doing his work through my web site. Scott I'm stepping back from you because any minute the lightning should be stricking you dead for lying!!!!!!! God never asks for business and life to be seperate. Obviously you have never been to any meetings conducted either by Amway or Quixtar as we give all the glory to God just as he asks us to in all we do and say. Please don't write me anymore as I feel Satan has a real strong hold on your heart. Covino had to fold his function back into the Storms function, because "Don wanted the whole group together" Bob Covino was upset not having his own function, yet he is pretty much always the salesman so it was not obvious. From what I can tell, Bob Covino is the strongest leg in the Storms organization which means other legs must really be weak. Growth in the Covino organization is definitely negative. Your site was really the last forum for truth! Thanks Mr. Scott, I think you are a person like others that left this business. If you did not be able to do this business you never will find people like you to damage Amway Image. Another thing:The voice on your Yager audio file is not right. I will send this file to Dexter Yager to inform him that you did. AMWAY is AMWAY OK. Bye. Miguel Mr. Scott, I have a software to recognize the voice components and compare voices, digital, on tapes or whatever, because I was working for a investigation department of governments of Latin-American. You are right, I did not know regarding Amway business, I am a Diamond only, only important for me is help people to get money like me, regarding Amway business knows Jay Van Andel and his partners. I was in Calgary AB Canada for two month last year, It was enough for write and speak more or less English. Miguel Dear Scott, you have to understand that we have to defend our business. figurate that someone criticize your business, What do you do? Regarding the voice file, maybe Dexter knows if that is his voice or not. Many people needs to understand that they must be Diamond on their mind before get the level on Amway. If you are or were IBO of Amway we can not speak any more about this point, this is named "cross line". Thanks for your comments, and have success on your activities. Miguel My wife and I were recently contacted through us posting our resumes on afree site"Yahoo Resumes". We were first contacted by a man offering us a position in a start up company in "1999" with doctors and nurses. Deceptive lack of information. Then shown the plan. We were told Quixtar was a new marketing system for the intranet. So we bought into the system as an IBO. Then the next week was the Portland Oregon Free enterprise celebration weekend. We were confused by these successful people "diamonds" that were in the biz for 15 years plus? An extravagant 3-day spectacle of videos and speakers using examples of material wealth to coax people in. I am disappointed but grateful that we were only involved for a month. Our experience with this system was deceit. Thank you for your web site. It has helped us clearly see the light. Hi, Do you have an alternative to becoming wealthy, without changing your mindset? You may have to Read Robert Kiyosaki's book on the Cash Flow Quadrant.. where he talks about the mindset.. and Network Marketing. Changing the mindset is the most important attribute.. in my humble opinion to changing your circumstances. Most people get into network marketing without willing to change and learn. And then lose out and complain. In any business, to build a big business, you will have to put in sweat equity for at least 3 - 5 years before you see the results. Most people give up before that. I would strongly urge anyone to read Robert Kiyosaki's books and do their research before getting into Network marketing. It takes work. It is for anyone who is willing to learn, change and willing to learn from his mistakes. I hold an MBA and am earning more about how to work with people and lead. I am surprised at the potential that people have, but are not willing to use positive thinking. Back to the home page