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Link: image_src IFrame Click Here advertisement CHOWHOUND For Those Who Live to Eat Special Coverage: Gnocchi with Grandma Paola Passover Greek Easter We're Tweetin' Login | Sign Up * * CHOW * Chowhound * Recipes * Restaurants & Bars * Stories * Video * Blog * myCHOW * General South Archive Tips for Dining, Eating and Food Shopping in the South Search this board _____________________________________________________________ [ search ] Results will be limited to the last year and sorted newest first. * * Email * PRINT * share CloseShare Tools * Facebook * Twitter * Digg * Stumble Upon * Reddit * More Tools Woeful news for BBQ'ers in Columbia, SC It appears that Millenders BBQ is going to be sold. Whether or not it will continue as a BBQ place is unknown. The lady who has been running it all these years feels that enough is enough and will sell and retire. She will not part with her recipes - this is particularly bad for those who like her hash, since IMHO it is the best traditional hash in the area - unalduterated with beef and other foreign objects, apparently using only the foreigh objects from the hog. I don't know any more details, but will try to find out. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 03, 2003 06:58AM 30 Replies so Far 1. Any chance of a discussion on just what is hash? What differentiates great hash from just good hash? Do you eat hash with something else? Does it look anything like pulled pork? In preparation for our field trip to Sweatman's this month, I'd really like to understand this Southern concept - I have never seen nor tasted hash. Permalink | Reply chuck Jul 03, 2003 09:07AM 1. re: chuck 1. The traditional hash eaten with bbq in SC is largely made from those parts of the hog which can't be used elsewhere. I don't have a specific recipe, but it usually contains hogs head and liver, plus various flavorings, water (it tends to be rather soupy, according to the tradition of the maker), sometimes some other pork parts. A true traditionist would also use (commercial places are prohibited by law from using some of these) the heart, spleen, and sometimes even the lungs (this last is very specifically forbidden, and wisely so, in commercial establishments). Some people add finely minced hard-boiled eggs, and I know not what else. Some hash has a mild ketchup taste. In any event, it is highly flavored, the heat according to the maker's taste. The not-so-traditional hashes may be made from ordinary parts of the hog, such as the hams or shoulders, with various other ingredients, especially the hard-boiled eggs. I have eaten some that were made from (horribile dictu) beef. Not more than once, though. In Georgia, they substitute Brunswick Stew with no rice, and in North Carolina they run toward dog bread, or hush puppies as they are now known. 2. It is eaten on rice. 3. It doesn't look at all like pulled pork, but more like a thick soup or stew. The meats are so finely chopped and so longly cooked that you don't see much recognizable unless they throw in some of the pulled or shredded pork itself. I would love to see a discussion of what differentiates good hash from great hash, but I'm afraid feelings run strong down here and it could degenerate into name calling or worse. My feeling is that the traditional hash is the best, but some recipes are better than others. Truly great hash should be cooked in an iron pot, long and slow. I've never seen bbq hash outside of SC. Good luck on your Sweatman's trip. I've never had any of their barbecue or hash that I didn't consider wonderful. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 03, 2003 10:42AM 1. re: Sandy When I was a student at Carolina, I took a new suitemate from Philadelphia with me to Sikes one day. His observation of the hash was that "it looks like somebody yakked on the plate." In all honesty, he was right. As badly as hash looks it tastes great. Sandy is right in that traditonal hash has a much higher composition of organ meats and thus a much deeper and more complex flavor that that you get in the typical commercial establishment which uses chopped waste meat in its hash. Chuck, the hash is slow cooked for hours until it comes to an almost liquid consistency. Unlike Sandy, I laud Sikes on the Sumter Highway as being the best of the local hash (I can do without the rest of the meal there). When I was a kid, we lived in Augusta for a few years. Hash was a staple of the barbeque plate there, too. Chuck, if you want to give hash a try, I suggest Maurice's Piggy Park which has an online store. Their hash is far from the best. However, it is the only place of which I know that will ship to other destinations. Here, deep in the heart of the often frozen midwest, I treat myself to a care package from Maurices once a winter. Permalink | Reply YourPalWill Jul 03, 2003 11:08AM 1. re: YourPalWill I like Sikes, but not primarily for the hash, which I will admit is good, although not traditional, since he uese only meat from the ham, which is all he uses to bbq. But Sikes is the only place in the midlands where you can get sliced bbq. The last time I was there (about 3 months ago) the sauce had a raw taste of French's mustard. Maybe a short term thing, but I haven't had the opportunity to get back and try it again. And hash does indeed look as if someone yakked on the rice, but is sooooo good. On the general Chowhound board are 2 threads about July 4th food, and no mention at all of bbq except my somewhat judgemental posting. Everything was just Yuppie stuff. Horrifying what the Chow world is coming to. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 03, 2003 11:26AM 1. re: Sandy How about another traditional SC BBQ side dish: Chicken Bog. Who has the best? Permalink | Reply MadBBQer Jul 03, 2003 12:47PM 1. re: MadBBQer The best I ever had was near Hemingway. We had to stay up nights and feed the fire when flu-curing tobacco. We would go steal an old hen, kill, pluck, singe, and draw it, cut it into suitable parts, throw it into a medium sized lard bucket, add water, salt, and lots of pepper, a cutup onion, and some fatback, and cook it until the chicken was almost done; add about 3 or 4 drinking cups of rice, and let it cook until the rice was done and dried out some. The worst I have had was one that had smoked sausage added to it - the smoked sausage didn't fit at all. You're supposed to use bacon if you are rich enough, or salt pork if you're poor. Although nowadays salt pork costs more than bacon. I don't live in the Pee Dee area, so I don't know what restaurant does the best job. I have to make my own here in the midlands. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 03, 2003 01:20PM 1. re: Sandy I see you're well-versed enough to know that this is a Pee Dee dish. Ever been to the Bog Festival in Loris? Permalink | Reply MadBBQer Jul 03, 2003 04:07PM 1. re: MadBBQer Just south of Florence, SC, on the Pamplico Hwy, are two buffet restaurants, Cain's and Jake's, where you can get chicken bog. I have enjoyed both of them, although they are the only two places where I have had the dish so I am far from an expert on it. Permalink | Reply Brent Kulman Jul 03, 2003 07:55PM 2. re: MadBBQer No, I've never been to the Bog Festival, but it sounds interesting. When is it held? I hope they don't put smoked sausage in it. Of course I knew it was the Pee Dee area. As I said, I first experienced it in its pristine form, while tending the tobacco curing fires. We also stole a small shoat one night and managed to butcher, roast (we let the fire in one flue die down to coals, to the detriment of the tobacco), eat it, and dispose of the bones in the swamp before morning. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 07, 2003 06:47AM 1. re: Sandy I do believe the Bog festival is held in October. I've been wanting to go, but haven't made it there yet. Since Loris is in Horry County, I suspect that you'd run into a proliferation of sausage-laced bog, as that's the Horry County way. I'm not a fan of that, but my wife does enjoy it when I make bog with bulk pork sausage. I ran into bacon-laced bog in Florence, where I first experienced it. A now closed Q joint in Florence called Bob's BBQ had it, as well as an eastern NC-style chopped & sauced Q, as well as the hash & rice. God i'm hungry! Permalink | Reply Savannahian Jul 12, 2003 11:37AM 3. re: MadBBQer Yes! My folks live in Loris but we all come originally from up-state NY. We are learning to appreciate the many southern traditions down here! Question: I am making chicken bog for the first time at our (extended) family vacation. I have a recipe that yields 4-6 servings and need to feed 30 people. Do I just multiply ingredients by 6? The recipe is by Paula Deen at food network dot com. I would be greatful for some hints! Permalink | Reply victoria goebel Sep 29, 2003 08:20AM 2. re: MadBBQer I remember, growing up in the Dog Bluff section of Horry County--between Aynor and Jordanville, my father made a great chicken bog. He cooked it in a large wash pot (cast iron) over a wood fire. (A wash pot is what rural people used to wash clothes in; the water was heated over a wood fire.) The main ingredients were chicken, rice, sausage, onions, water, salt, and pepper. When he had it, squirrel was also added in. Oh, was it delicious!! He cooked it when a bunch of people got together to do some work. I remember people used to rave about how good it was!! Permalink | Reply Gasque Jul 07, 2003 03:40PM 2. re: YourPalWill Will, thank you, too. I really appreicate all the information. It always amazes me just how much there is to learn about food. I have never been a big fan of offal, but it has always fascinated me. I love to watch others eat it though. Ever catch the chef that travels around the world on FoodTV? Tony is his name and he's from NYC The guy is amazing. He eats insects, eyeballs, guts, etc. Talk about a adventuresome person. In Italy, it was an amazing experience to just stand near the offal butchers in Florence and see people go up and order stomach linings, tripe, hearts, lungs, brains, etc. Unbelievable. Very very popular - In Rome, they sometines refer to it as "Roman food" Jen Kelb, a Chowhound, alerted me about these "treats" before we went to Italy. I have been to Piggy Park many times. And, I do seem to recall they had a steam table pan full of what I now have come to realize is hash. They always had their ribs sitting in their famous mustard BBQ sauce (good stuff) in the steam table, too. At least that was the case at lunch time when they were very busy. I was never At Piggy Park when they cut my ribs off a slab on a "to order" basis. I really don't know what to say about all this hash stuff - I've got to hash this over a bit more. Permalink | Reply Chuck Jul 03, 2003 12:17PM 1. re: Chuck One of the things that most interests me is how food customs can vary within a relatively short distance. I grew up in SC lowcountry (Eastern Berkely County and Charleston), and there were noticeable variations even there, 15-20 miles from Charleston. Chicken Bog, a dish from the Pee Dee area, varies widely throughout the 5 or 6 counties in NE SC. Catfish stew will bring about great arguments about whether it should be a red stew (with tomato and ketchup) or a white one (milk and water, without the above). Bbq is another one; east of the Wateree River, mustard base fades out, and the bbq resembles somewhat Eastern NC sauce - vinegar and red pepper flakes, with some little bit of tomato sometimes added in SC. This version is also found in the Bamberg and Barnwell area along the Savannah River, and is now becoming available in the midlands. In the midlands area, mustard-based rules, except for a few inroads like the above. In the upstate, it seems to be split geographically, with the western part seeming to favor a tomato sauce, while the area bordering NC seems to go with the Lexington-type sauce - vinegar and tomato, but thin and tart. I have noticed that in Saluda, NC, a mustard-based sauce is available, probably as a result of the influx of midlands, SC, people coming up in the summer to escape the heat. In eastern and central NC and all of SC, pulled pork rules, but there are enclaves of chopped pork. In eastern NC and a few places in SC (esp. Sweatmans, wood cooked), the whole pig is the standard, whereas central and western NC and most of SC, pork shoulders or possibly hams are the norm. In SC, the sauce is usually addeed to the bbq, whereas in NC it is usually used as a dipping sauce. After most of the readily available meat is cut off and pulled, Little Pig's BBQ in Columbia will bring out the carcass for the patrons to go tear off what ever they want. This enables getting at the remaining skin and some awfully good Mr. Brown. Since most of the places now do not bbq the whole hog, this is an added attraction to the place, as is the price -around $8 AYCE, with a senior citizen and children under 12 discount. Maurice's Piggy Park is pretty much considered mediocre now, since he has expanded all over the place. I consider it too expensive, and his sauce far too sweet and cloying. On the other hand, he does a roaring business. His bbq is cooked with wood, however, which is becoming a rarity now. BTW, as I stated in another thread, South Carolinians have been eating the insides of animals for over 300 years, so organ meat in hash wouldn't faze us, although there are few places that cook it that way. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 03, 2003 01:03PM 1. re: Sandy I had no clue these traditional items that South Carolina natives enjoyed or still enjoy. Has this been passed on to more recent generations? Very interesting. Chicken Bog? Unbelievable. You Gamecocks should get together and do a show on the Deep South and sell it to FoodTV - This is amazing stuff. One point about chopped pork vs pulled pork. Because I have still have never had true North Carolina pulled pork (east or west) though I have tried driving through eastern NC (got hit with the Sunday closings), I can only relate to some very unhappy pulled pork sandwiches here in Florida. What these places in Florida do is mix sauce into what might have been perfectly good slow cooked pulled shoulder meat. Even worse, some places have the pork sitting in a liquid in the steam table! So, of course, I don't like it and always asked for chopped pork that is dry yet hopefully moist and I'll put my own sauce on thank you very much. Whnn I see those wonderful shows on Carolina juicy pulled pork with no sauces, I want to go through the television! Now, finally, I am going to get to go to Bub Sweatman's - I cannot wait!! Great posts! Thanks again for the education. Permalink | Reply Chuck Jul 03, 2003 05:28PM 1. re: Chuck Sadly, most bbq places in SC mix the sauce into the pulled pork, rather than using it as a dipping sauce. Sikes' BBQ in the eastern midlands is one of the few places that you can get sliced pork bbq and does not slather it in sauce. For myself, whenever I smoke a butt for pulled pork, I mix a very, very small amount of my sauce (not mustard-based - I've never been able to make a really good one) into the pork and use the rest as a dipping sauce. A show by hounds on the "Deep South" foods would be a trip to do, but it would be sure to raise various hackles because of the deep and violently varied local traditions and variations, each of which is established by the Law and the Prophets. I once heard someone say "Nice people don't eat collards." This obviously wouldn't go over very well in most places in the South, even if collards are really an inferior sort of cabbage. There, that ought to start it. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 07, 2003 08:06AM 2. re: Sandy Sandy: Since you are clearly a SC food expert, perhaps you can give us a quick tutorial on another dish with a great name, Frogmore Stew? thanks! Permalink | Reply Bob W. Jul 04, 2003 11:02AM 1. re: Bob W. Obviously, I'm not Sandy. But Frogmore Stew (named after a small coastal farming community) is one of those dishes that speaks of the regional ingredients that are available every summer in the loaw country. My favorite Frogmore stew starts with a broth of water beer and onions. To that sweet fresh summer white corn on the cob, spicy Old Bay seasoning, and locally made smoked sausages are added. Some folks use a commercial brand of Kielbasa. But, I always preferred to find a locally produced smoked pork sausage. As the stew comes to a boil and the corn arrives at the minmum amount of doneness, the fire is turned off underneath and the shrimp are added (headless but unshelled) to steam barely in the heat of the broth. The "stew" is served in soup bowls with some good bread to soak up the broth. The dish has different names in different parts of the state. Folks in Beaufort may call it Beaufort Stew. Many folks just call it low country stew. Frogmore seems to have stuck due to its unique nature. Permalink | Reply YourPalWill Jul 04, 2003 09:44PM 1. re: YourPalWill thanks very much. it sounds like a low country cousin of the new england clambake. Permalink | Reply Bob W. Jul 04, 2003 11:17PM 2. re: Bob W. Bob As near as I can tell it is a traditional dish probably originally from Daufuskie Island. It never came to be well-known until the influx into the Hunting Island-Beaufort-Hilton Head area christened it Frogmore Stew. It basically is field corn on the cob, smoked sausage, shrimp, crab, potatoes, and whatever else you have. I have a cookbook at home from Daufuskie, and I'll check in it to see what they say and post it. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 07, 2003 06:39AM 1. re: Sandy ...and over here in Savannah, we have adopted the same dish as our own, but refer to it is "lowcountry boil". If you come to Savannah on the 4th of July, the number of lowcountry boils outnumber BBQ's tremendously! Permalink | Reply Savannahian Jul 12, 2003 11:29AM 3. re: Bob W. Very sparse gleanings on the origin of "Frogmore Stew." The Daufuskie book gives only a recipe, with no background, but it is from the "modern" period, say between 1945-1970. I'll paraphrase it below: Lowcountry Boil 3 lbs. potatoes, left whole and unpeeled 20 ears of corn, cut in half 6 pods of garlic 4 bell peppers, quartered 4 big onions, cut in quarters, or smaller 1 lb. butter 6 lbs smoked sausage (very probably not kielbasa) 6 lbs shrimp, headded and rinsed, but not shelled Pepper and salt to taste In the biggest pot you can find, cook the sausage in water for 20 minutes. Dump in all the remaining items except the shrimp. Cook until the potatoes are almost done, then add the shrimp and cook until they are tender, say about 7 to 10 minutes. Drain the water off from the boil. Cover picnic table with old newspapers and throw out the boil onto the table "as if you were throwing out a bucket of water." Each person is responsible for grabbing what he or she wants. Paper plates are the dinnerware of choice, and whole rolls of paper towels should be put on the table since you will have goo and dripping up to your elbows, if not further. Serve with a crusty bread and plenty of SWEETENED ice tea. You'll notice that there is no Old Bay Seasoning used in the above. It sounds much like the crawfish boil that Rockaway Health Club (a great dive) here in Columbia used to serve AYCE once a year until it burned down. They didn't have any vegetables in it, though, except garlic and onions. I remember standing outside in the pouring rain eating crawdads as fast as they brought them. The book that the above is paraphrased from is "Stirrin' the Pots on Daufuskie" by Billie Burn, 1985, Impressions Printing Co., 16 Archer Rd., Hilton Head, SC, 29928, ISBN 0-9614670-0-2. It's a cookbook with a combination of reminiscences, history, advice, and recipes. For instance, if you don't want to get pregnant, you should drink a tbs of a tea made from the yellow lining of a chicken gizzard each morning during your monthly period. Seriously, it's a pretty good book, with a combination of old and new recipes, with a fair number of duplications to take care of individual variations. Many of the recipes are cooked to furnish a gravy, since the staples were rice or "corn hominy" (grits), which require something on them. I'm beginning to think that the lowcountry boil was a generic dish spread throughout the SC lowcountry from Edisto Island south to the Savannah River, simply made of seafood and whatever else was available, certainly corn (field corn, which would be eaten fresh as well as dried unhusked in storage - never garden corn, which was largely unknown until much later), potatoes, and onions. I do know that it was not known in the Charleston area and eastern Berkeley County until the 1960's - 1970's influx. If pressed for a terminus a quo for the spread of its popularity, I would set it at the development of Hilton Head Island. I will have to admit that I have never tasted it, preferring my shrimp boiled 7 minutes and served unshelled and with the heads on (sucking the heads, which contain a flavorful juice, is the mark of a true lowcountry shrimp lover). This can't be done with shrimp which have been frozen. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 09, 2003 07:36AM 1. re: Sandy Ahhh, Sandy. Even more good chow memories now that you mention Rockaways. It was more than I could take when i heard that both Rockaway and Talley Ho were no more. Permalink | Reply YourPalWill Jul 09, 2003 12:04PM 2. re: Sandy Ahhh, Sandy. Even more good chow memories now that you mention Rockaways. It was more than I could take when i heard that both Rockaway and Talley Ho were no more. That's an intersting receipe. I have never heard of Frogmore stew made with sweet peppers. It sounds really good. Permalink | Reply YourPalWill Jul 09, 2003 12:05PM 1. re: YourPalWill Good news! They're rebuilding Rockaways. Of course, it won't be the same, since you can't buy Grungy Patina at Home Depot or Lowes, but we'll have to see how it evolves. The area to the north, Shandon, is largely yuppie and University, and not far away on Rosewood there is now a Publix, so the whole area may be becoming somewhat moderately upscale. But we'll have to wait and see. One good thing - there is now a pizza joint, Dano's, next to Publix, where you can get a fairly good New York pizza. The rest of Columbia seems addicted to the Chicago style. I will admit that bell peppers are a bit toney for Frogmore Stew (or Lowcountry Boil), but you ought to see some of the wild ingredients that the restaurants put in it. Also, since the "stew" word is in the name, a lot of restaurants serve it with the liquid and all put in a bowl, like a thin stew. I had always seen it served with the liquid drained off and the remainder dumped out on a newspaper-lined table. To add to my posting above, I have found some supposed "histories" of it which date the origin (and one person claims to have invented it), giving its origin as 40-60 years ago. I think that they are referrring to the popularizing of the dish, since my sources seem to indicate a generic dish dating back at least to the 1890's and indicating that it was pretty widespread in the southeastern SC area. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 09, 2003 12:44PM 2. re: Chuck Chuck: I need to introduce you to the group from the Chicago Chowhound board. Chicago has a large Mexican population and an open air Sunday market that is lined with vendors selling some of the most authentic Mexican food that you'vew ever eaten. Among the more popular offerings for some of the hounds are tacos made from the goats head including the eyeballs. I've never indulged in the eyeballs. And I've never heard anyone who has recommend them to anyone else. That said, there are also some terrific more mainstream items for sale at the Maxwell Street Market inclusing great tamales and more traditional tacos. The group gets together once or twice a quarter for some chowing. Tony Bourdain is the chef that you're speaking of. He's known to post on the New York boards from time to time under the handle "Bourdain". One day, I hope to have the financial resources to do exactly what Tony does on his televsion show. Permalink | Reply YourpalWill Jul 03, 2003 02:24PM 1. re: YourpalWill Will: Just got through with a rather lengthly battle on the Chicago site with ChiHounds - Chicago Hot Dogs vs NY Dogs (that one I started to get a reaction that I knew I'd be getting) and NY restaurants vs Chicago (a real battle!) so I'll stick closer to my home (Fla) and my true home (NYC) Thanks for giving Tony's name - I love that guy - My favorite show on FoodTV - I am soooooooooo tired of Emrill - Never thought I'd say that but.... Permalink | Reply Chuck Jul 03, 2003 05:08PM 2. re: Sandy Sandy, thanks for the time you've put into explaining this Southern Tradition" All I can say is "My God!" Well, at least when I look at this stuff along the buffet line, I'll know what it is when we get to Bub Sweatman's place. Perhaps I can induce some of the guys to try it! Me? Not so sure at this point. An amazing post and thanks again for your time - Great stuff Permalink | Reply Chuck Jul 03, 2003 11:59AM 3. re: Sandy Sandy: Ben's Whole Hog BBQ in Manassas, VA, when I ate there soon after it opened a couple years ago, served a respectable SC bbq hash. I thought the rest of the stuff was just ordinary (and attributed the rave reviews to the barbecued-deprived palates in these parts) and never went back. Now the place is under new management and I don't know if they still serve hash. P.S. Sandy, on my last trip to Sweatman's I saw a sign for another local barbecue called Dupree's. Have you -- or anyone else who reads this -- ever tried it? It would be a shame for us travelin' folks to pass up Sweatman's for an unknown quantity that turns out to be really inferior, but I would give it a try if it gets thumbs up from locals. Permalink | Reply Bob W. Jul 03, 2003 12:35PM 1. re: Bob W. The name rings a bell, and it could be the bbq joint near Florence in some little town that escapes my memory. I believe it is mentioned on another site, possibly HollyEats.com or The RoadFood site. The only way I would pass up Sweatman's is for the second coming, and then only if they have bbq and hash. Permalink | Reply Sandy Jul 03, 2003 01:09PM << Back to the General South Archive Board Back to the Top | Reply to original post Tags: catfish, dogs, crawfish, beef, carcass, bacon, children, cousin, corn, chicken, england, beer, dee, bread, bones, bbq sauce, butt, bbq, chef, deep in the heart, animals, cookbook, boil, farming, berkeley, barbeque, clue, ears, barbecue, bowls General South Archive Board discussions Southern Hot Dog Quest (SHDQ) (105 replies) Barbecue Road Trip (37 replies) The BBQ Joint / North Charleston, SC (7 replies) Moose's BBQ - Moncks Corner, South Carolina (15 replies) another recommendation for bbq travelling down I-95 (8 replies) The best diner in the South (47 replies) Bessinger's BBQ - Charleston, SC (14 replies) Carolina BBQ on I-77 in SC (3 replies) Conecuh Sausage (22 replies) Driving from Tampa to NYC; Where should i sleep, where should i eat? 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